Interview
Shawn Braley
If you’re industrious by nature the right people will hear about you.
Alt Ohio: Was the song “Strut” influenced by the movie Saturday Night Fever?
Owen Thomas: Maybe subliminally. That song is actually very literal. I was walking out of my house one day and looking around and just realized; it’s tough out there for people. When we go home to Seymour, Indiana our friend contingent are working people with real life jobs. We don’t really hang out with people from the music business, because we chose to live in Indiana and not live in Nashville. I do like Saturday Night Fever though, it’s kind of funny. I don’t think it’s intended to be, but it really is.
AO: So you mentioned being from Seymour, Indiana. Was it difficult breaking out as a band from Indiana?
OT: I still feel like we’re at a very humble level as a band. As far as getting discovered, I don’t really feel that that’s very hard to do, as long as you’re a band that’s kicking up a little dust. You hear a lot of bands talk about getting discovered and they want to move out to Los Angeles, and I wonder, “why the hell would you do that?” Why would you want to be one of the faceless ten thousand bands that just moved to L.A. this month, as opposed to being from a more rural part of the country such as Indiana, Georgia or Tennessee? Just work really hard, play everywhere and anywhere and before you know it labels will start to hear about your initiative and the more you play you’ll start writing better songs. Before The Elms started, my brother, Chris, and I were in another band and we were playing 120 shows a year booking ourselves around the Midwest. If you’re industrious by nature the right people will hear about you.
AO: With your music, I feel like you guys do a good job of mixing Americana, Tom Petty-esque music, with Brit-pop. Is that something that you guys consciously decided or was it something that grew organically from the song writing?
OT: It’s just a product of our influences. I mean, these days, I listen to a lot of urban music. Ultimately my heros are Tom Petty and Springsteen, but I also love Ray Davies and The Kinks. The way we’ve described our music in the past is if a British band played American songs. And my brother and I’s dad is from Wales so we were always attracted to that style from the get go. We just grew up in working class towns and played rock n’ roll.
AO: Another thing you guys do well is use Midwestern imagery in your lyrics without being overly sentimental or cheesy.
OT: I think I’m just cognizant of the things the audience hear when they listen to a song and think; “damn, that’s cheesy”. I know the vernacular of those from the Midwest, being from Indiana, when they say things like “Keep on keeping on’” or “Strut your stuff” and stuff like that. There’s a difference between talking like people who live in my home town and acting like you talk like them.
AO: It seems to be that contemporary country music adopts those phrases but it comes across as fake.
OT: There seems to be like a whole trait in country music to speak the language of the “working man”. I think some people do what they do to try and write songs to appeal to those people, but then others like Mellencamp or Springsteen convey the sentiments of working class people while being really cinematic.
AO: They are able to bring realism to it.
OT: Exactly. It’s not like some musician who moves to Nashville from San Francisco and says “Man, these small-towners like to listen to country music so I’m going to write a song that talks their language.” You can always tell. Most of them just write songs about God and country and USA, and that’s fine, they can do whatever, but hopefully we’re a little more authentic than that.
AO: As a band is there a level where you guys would like to reach or are you happy with what you have?
OT: We’re not satisfied with where we are at all. We want to just have our own blueprint for success. For a lot of people that might be selling a lot of records or quantified in more monetary ways, but I think for our band success is just being able to do things with as independent a spirit as possible while keeping it all self sustaining. A process that’s able to grow steadily and not be recognized by only one record or song. And that may not be realized for a few more years but we’re willing to wait for that.
AO: When you guys first signed a record deal it was with a CCM/Gospel label. When you switched to being a more mainstream/secular band did you receive any heat from either side?
OT: You know it’s been funny; there really hasn’t been much of either. The people who liked us when we were on a Gospel label still like us, and those who didn’t still don’t. I don’t feel like there’s a discrimination against artists with some sort of spiritual make up as maybe there was 10 years ago. When I was 18 I remember them saying refrain from placing your worldview into your songs, but I don’t think it’s that way anymore. People understand that there is a spiritual element to life, we all just have different ways of looking at that.
AO: In that case then what are your feelings on CCM (Contemporary Christian Music)?
OT: It has a sound of it’s own. It has a feeling of it’s own. The concept when it all started was to just be sympathetic to people of faith where artists of a particular spiritual make up could make records where they don’t have to compromise any sort of their spiritual background to make the music they want to make. Now it’s pretty much just an industry that is used to facilitate the Evangelical church. Most bands now who have some sort of measure of faith but also aspire to create progressive art are just avoiding that whole scene all together and just going right out into the mainstream.
The CCM world has a purpose, and a pretty clear and concise mission. I just don’t feel like we’re a part of that.
AO: Do you feel like it’s restrictive?
OT: It’s restrictive if you’re a rock n roll band. I felt like all we would do was disappoint people because all we would do was get on stage and play a rock show and then walk backstage and have a gaggle of ten mothers in my face about why the music sounded like The Rolling Stones because that makes them think of sexuality. Just very trivial things that have enormous effects on some people that believe that rock in it’s essence is evil. I just feel like my whole M.O. in life is to prove that there’s a place where your spirituality and that inherent risk and danger of rock n roll can meet. Where you can walk that line and not compromise either. And maybe that’s a dangerous thing to try and pull off.
AO: Like Johnny Cash?
OT: Huh, maybe that was his line. (laughs)
AO: In the song ‘Back To Indiana’ off your latest record you wrote “ I don’t believe in fate, I call it destiny…” do you feel that in life we’re all destined to a certain life or does free will play a bigger part in it?
OT: I’m proud of that line because I think some people think you just sort of luck your way into anything that happens to you and it’s just all a matter of fortune. I feel that everything in life has a distinct purpose and you just have to ultimately choose to follow the things that are in your heart. Most people won’t, because they feel that it’s impractical. They always have to have a contingency plan. They’ll say, “Well sure I love painting, but I’m just going to get a job and that’ll be my hobby because painting will never pay the bills…” I understand that being practical is part of life, but I think that there are a lot of people who relegate themselves to this bane of existence where life is not meant to be purposed, it’s meant to be practical. In my most optimistic of moments I feel that most people could live their lives endeavoring to do whatever is in their heart first, and at some point with enough fortitude, belief and diligence they can make the primary cause of their life their passion as well.
It’s funny when I talk to people in my hometown, you know, playing poker with some of these old timers and they’re always like; “Hey man, I heard about your band. You make any money doin’ that?” They always ask that and I’m always like, “I mean I do okay.” That’s just sort of the indoctrinated economy that most people have; does it make money or does it not? And I understand that, I just wish that people’s idea of life was first to be purposed and second was to make money.
AO: You’re a success if you’re doing what you love.
OT: Yeah I mean success is following your heart and the rest, be it fame or money, should all be a by product.
AO: In reference to your optimism, do you happen to have ANY trace of cynicism within you? Looking at your lyrics and how you’re talking I’d say no.
OT: I feel like as a cause personally and as a band is to try to say to people stuck in a certain bane of existence to start dreaming again and start believing that the stuff in your life you never thought could happen to you could. Maybe it is a matter of effort, and maybe it is luck, and maybe it is a matter of perseverance. So many people don’t get what they want because they don’t even try. I’m not gonna be sympathetic to that. If that’s what you’re gonna do and you aren’t even gonna try to pursue what you want with your life than that makes you a slacker, I guess.
With my life and the band’s life, we’d like to try to put a different lens on people’s life and get them to see life as a pursuit of purpose.
AO: So do you feel then that if someone feels like they love painting that they were purposed to paint?
OT: It’s a little more global than that, you don’t just wake up one day at nine years old and say; “ You know what, I love swimming…” But I think everybody, if they really sat down and got very serious with themselves, could find they have very distinct impressions. Not just what do you like to do, but what are you gifted in? What skills do you have that are just imbued into your character? If people just become brutally honest with themselves, they know something they would like to do. And for some people that would be to be in sales, or to be in administrative work, or humanitarian work. Some people love the rush of selling a house, or an insurance policy.
There are a lot of people working jobs that are not really their purpose, and I feel like I’m just becoming a broken record. (laughs) I don’t think it’s just enough to have a hobby that you love and then just pursue it. You have to have a very stark conversation with yourself and say; “ What do I feel is my destiny?” It’s not as fickle as just liking to do something, it’s feeling purposed to do something. People should just be encouraged in that way to chase that stuff. I can’t tell you the number of conversations I have had to people who have said if they could do it all over again they would do it differently. I just hate to hear that. You get one crack at this life. Many people are aware of what they were purposed to do, they are just too afraid to try.
AO: Your message is usually, lyrically, very personal. But on your newest record, the song “This Is How The World Will End” is thematically more global than that. What sparked that thought? Was it basically what you were just talking about?
OT: Well that song, I was watching the news and first of all it was all bad news, the economy, the war, the homeless crisis. I just feel like those ills, the things that affect us daily are matters of the heart at the end of the day. We’re in an age of greed and consumption. It seems like people are getting less compassionate and if the matters of the heart were rectified first then you’d find that you didn’t need to legislate people to do a lot of things that they would choose to do.
I think Obama has an unbelievable communicative ability. He’s probably more gifted at that than most presidents we’ve ever had. I hope that as his presidency rolls out and he gains credibility with the public that he starts to make appeals to people, not saying he’s going to change laws so that we’ll act a certain way. He should just make personal appeals to people. I’m not going to tell you to do this, but I’m going to ask you to. I think hearts are still ripened in enough places that you can move people with the right communication and humility. That song is about how we all need to give a little more, and be sweeter to each other. I guess it’s just another optimistic feeling that things could change. We could fight each other less, less people would starve and be sick, we would break less hearts if we would just quit being so vapid and self absorbed, and this could happen if we really esteemed others higher than we do ourselves.
AO: So you’re saying that lawmakers legislate laws to try and change how people act, but in the end, it never actually changes their hearts?
OT: Exactly. I think there are some places that people should know you can’t kill a guy or you’re going to jail. Fair enough. I think that is an appropriate law, and laws are there to be deterrents. I’m not against laws, I’m just pro the idea of people choosing to do the right thing as opposed to being told they have to. There’s a very simple, special transaction of the spirit that takes place when you walk down the street and see somebody in need and you help them. Not because some governor legislated some law that said we have to help the needy. It just begrudges people to the whole idea of charity.
Obviously the big debate right now is healthcare and you hear people talk about welfare or work programs. A lot of people are disgruntled because they feel that somebody is telling them they have to give to these programs when they really didn’t choose to do that. It’s like the government usurping their choice, taking their money and appropriating it elsewhere. I’ve got this idea that charity is really a wonderful thing and I’m optimistic enough to know that if you petition people in the right way that they’ll choose to help other people. I can say that from my own life I’ve seen it happen. We work with organizations that help impoverished communities become self sustaining, drill wells, or child sponsorship programs. Of course they have their issues, they aren’t without flaw, but the premise is that you walk into a room and you ask people to be compassionate. If you approach people with realities and with a contrite spirit maybe they’ll say, “you know, I don’t do enough, maybe I don’t give enough…” And you’ll find out that that transaction is what the human experience is about, it’s about service. Somewhere along the line we got confused into being it’s about the pursuit of stuff and money and it just convoluted the idea of living, which is meant to have a backdrop of service and community.
So eventually we got to a point where government officials looked around and thought about how no one is giving to the homeless people, and no one is helping the needy so we should start telling them we have to give to them. It just corrupts the whole idea.
…..
I’m a Christian guy and philosophically I agree with the teachings of Christ. This isn’t me saying everybody needs to believe what I do about God. I’m just saying that as a principle in life that being gracious and compassionate fosters all the best attributes of what people have to offer. And we’re just in this culture right now where I feel like I’m increasingly sympathetic to the plight of the housewife because that’s a woman who gets up in the morning and when she checks her email and some ad pops up that tells her she could have whiter teeth. Then she goes downstairs and turns on Oprah and she says to get something for her, and she thinks maybe she’s not happy. Then at the grocery store, buying food for the family, she sees the magazines in the checkout lane with superstars walking down beaches, reminding her she’ll never be able to afford a vacation and relax on the beach with Catherine Zeta Jones. The plot is just lost. I don’t feel that’s me preaching the Gospel, I’m not saying he everybody, believe my faith schematics, I’m just saying the premise of life should be service. When you serve somebody your spirit is emboldened. It’s a flawed logic to think that life should be a pursuit for yourself.
AO: Another line that thought process brings to light is when you sing; “I’ve got a heart that’s full of equal parts fear and faith…” which is interesting because you don’t always hear that from the spiritual standpoint. You either hear songs about the fearful part or the faithful part. Can you just elaborate on how you felt when you wrote that?
OT: I guess every time I think about my faith, ultimately why doesn’t anybody believe anything that isn’t right in front of their face, it’s not tangible, it’s not provable, it’s not scientifically plausible. Anything, not just belief in God, but anything you can’t see there is a matter of blind belief involved. So everyday that I get up, walk around and live my life is tempered by this idea that I have of God and spirituality and sometimes when I’m living my life that way I say to myself; “I can’t even see what I’m using as this primary backdrop to my life.” So there’s that rub of trying to be a logical guy, I hope I’m getting wiser as I get older, but at the same time I have a value set in my life that is constructed in a belief of something I can’t see. So that’s all that’s about, equal parts fear and faith, you know, is just being on that road of feeling like yeah I guess at some point the things I believe aren’t grounded in logic, but grounded in faith.
AO: The line stands out in the song due to the honesty it seems to convey.
OT: Anybody who’ll say to you they’ve never once doubted their faith is lying. And if they haven’t, maybe they should, ask themselves some tougher questions. I was in a room the other day who are Christians and we started talking about it and I started playing devil’s advocate. All they were doing was quoting scripture and I was saying some people aren’t going to care about scripture. They’ll say it’s just a book of fairytales, just a bunch of ruminations by a bunch of old dudes and written thousands of years ago. What if somebody said to give them something more visceral or tangible? Not just the words out of the scripture but why do you believe what you believe.
AO: Because to somebody with no belief in God, a book written inspired by Him will be of no consequence.
OT: “The Bible says so” is just not a good enough answer sometimes. I think that faith is constructed to just be out of logical reach at all times. Even if we found out that the earth was a certain age and we could prove scientifically that the earth was young, thus leading to a whole radical sea change in scientific philosophy you still can’t see God. I think faith is not meant to be proven so that final step is just one of blind trust. I think sometimes people need to ask themselves why they believe that as opposed to script on a page, you have to have some sort of reason in your gut.
AO: My favorite song of yours is “ A Place In The Sun” and a line that definitely stands out in that song is “There’s a man in my shoes where a boy used to be” which I relate to a lot because I’m 22 years old and I feel like I’m still a boy having to deal with adult responsibility. Does that express the sentiments of that song?
OT: Yeah, I mean, I’m 31 and we just work very, very hard and have gone through some really tumultuous times and really disheartening times for the sake of what we believe is our purpose. I’ve just learned a lot and at times I feel like my hearts become a little more calloused to things. It’s a line that’s about age and getting older, and seeing the world differently as you get older. It’s this idea that if you’re not careful, you’ll lose a little bit of that wonder, that anticipation for every moment. It’s what you could call optimism in pessimism. I, at times, walk into a situation not believing that the best is possible. I never want to lost that feeling that at any given moment I believe the best. I live my life and everything I do is logical and meticulously crafted and I work tirelessly to do what we do. Even when we’re off the road I find other ways to succeed here and to chase this dream, and I just hope at some point I don’t lose that general wonder and amazement of rolling out on stage that night and feeling like something new is possible. I don’t feel like we pursue vitality, it’s just something that stays with you or it doesn’t.
That song is actually a little more of a allegory, a little more of a story. I pictured a guy, maybe in his 60’s, having worked in a plant or a factory for 45 years and just being exhausted. Maybe his joints are a mess and he’s hunched over and his body’s tired. All he wants is to sit there and be calm and get away from the daily struggle, just for a little while. I’m really proud of the song because I feel like it does have a cinematic element to it. He just wants to be sitting there in the breeze under a tree, maybe watching somebody he loves dance in the wind, just being free from work for awhile. Free from the stress. That is the story of so many people I know, just wanting to get away from the stress of finance or work or life in general. He is feeling that he’s devoid of purpose, and being free of that and relaxing and enjoying the simple things.
AO: This may come across as a back handed compliment but I think the way you guys construct your songs, they have a perfection to them, but it’s almost as if I am never surprised by the song.
OT: Yeah, I don’t feel that the role of our band, or the interest of our band is to go out there and musically be radical, it’s just to musically be great. I just hope at some point we can be listed in a heritage of bands that include my favorites. I feel like we’ll always make records that will be housed in that four piece rock band combo. And we’ll just push it as far as we can.
AO: There’s definitely a uniqeness to your style, as I said, with the mixture of Americana and Brit-Pop.
OT: We didn’t sit down and decide that.
AO: It just came out of your influences?
OT: It was just one day I was like, hey guys I wrote this song, and then I started a band with my friends and my brother. What I’m proud of about out band is it really is a very humble way for a band to start. It’s just four buddies really. Our relationships were not founded because of music, it was founded because we all knew each other since we were kids. We just grew into this deep, profound love of music and we decided let’s do this and we got in a van and started it together. I’m just really proud of that. It’s not like we audition each other, or put up fliers or ad’s, it was just very organic. I can’t think of a more real way for a band to come together and I think it’s that reason we’ve been able to weave through the ebb and flow as a band and personally in our lives. I’m just really proud of that.
AO: Was there ever a moment you felt The Elms could be no more?
OT: Yeah, it happens. I wouldn’t say often, but it’s semi-regularly. I mean, you walk off stage and I’m a perfectionist by nature and that’s just a monster and it’s just always sneering at you. You’ll be on stage and hear the littlest of mistakes and my brain just goes haywire and the cause of my life for the last year as far as performances have been concerned is to control that. It got very out of control. We’ve had conversations before where we discussed why I just couldn’t be appeased and why I couldn’t allow myself to just enjoy the moment. I think at the end of the day, the reason I couldn’t be satisfied, is really an asset to the band. Perfectionism, a certain neurosis, is born because you believe you’re called to something, so I don’t think that trait is necessarily bad to where it’s debilitating and you can’t laugh off a mistake.
We’ve had plenty of times, I mean, my brothers in the band, so we fight all the time. I guess that’s what I’m saying, the things that we’ve gone through and go through consistently has been enough to break most other bands, but because of our commitment to each other that’s been forced since we were nine years old, we just can’t walk away from it. Our personalities are so wrapped into each other now, it’s almost unexplainable. There should be a word past friendship to explain this. There should be another word invented for guys with history like ours because it’s so deep and vast a connection. It’s not marriage, but it’s something strange.
Owen Thomas: Maybe subliminally. That song is actually very literal. I was walking out of my house one day and looking around and just realized; it’s tough out there for people. When we go home to Seymour, Indiana our friend contingent are working people with real life jobs. We don’t really hang out with people from the music business, because we chose to live in Indiana and not live in Nashville. I do like Saturday Night Fever though, it’s kind of funny. I don’t think it’s intended to be, but it really is.
AO: So you mentioned being from Seymour, Indiana. Was it difficult breaking out as a band from Indiana?
OT: I still feel like we’re at a very humble level as a band. As far as getting discovered, I don’t really feel that that’s very hard to do, as long as you’re a band that’s kicking up a little dust. You hear a lot of bands talk about getting discovered and they want to move out to Los Angeles, and I wonder, “why the hell would you do that?” Why would you want to be one of the faceless ten thousand bands that just moved to L.A. this month, as opposed to being from a more rural part of the country such as Indiana, Georgia or Tennessee? Just work really hard, play everywhere and anywhere and before you know it labels will start to hear about your initiative and the more you play you’ll start writing better songs. Before The Elms started, my brother, Chris, and I were in another band and we were playing 120 shows a year booking ourselves around the Midwest. If you’re industrious by nature the right people will hear about you.
AO: With your music, I feel like you guys do a good job of mixing Americana, Tom Petty-esque music, with Brit-pop. Is that something that you guys consciously decided or was it something that grew organically from the song writing?
OT: It’s just a product of our influences. I mean, these days, I listen to a lot of urban music. Ultimately my heros are Tom Petty and Springsteen, but I also love Ray Davies and The Kinks. The way we’ve described our music in the past is if a British band played American songs. And my brother and I’s dad is from Wales so we were always attracted to that style from the get go. We just grew up in working class towns and played rock n’ roll.
AO: Another thing you guys do well is use Midwestern imagery in your lyrics without being overly sentimental or cheesy.
OT: I think I’m just cognizant of the things the audience hear when they listen to a song and think; “damn, that’s cheesy”. I know the vernacular of those from the Midwest, being from Indiana, when they say things like “Keep on keeping on’” or “Strut your stuff” and stuff like that. There’s a difference between talking like people who live in my home town and acting like you talk like them.
AO: It seems to be that contemporary country music adopts those phrases but it comes across as fake.
OT: There seems to be like a whole trait in country music to speak the language of the “working man”. I think some people do what they do to try and write songs to appeal to those people, but then others like Mellencamp or Springsteen convey the sentiments of working class people while being really cinematic.
AO: They are able to bring realism to it.
OT: Exactly. It’s not like some musician who moves to Nashville from San Francisco and says “Man, these small-towners like to listen to country music so I’m going to write a song that talks their language.” You can always tell. Most of them just write songs about God and country and USA, and that’s fine, they can do whatever, but hopefully we’re a little more authentic than that.
AO: As a band is there a level where you guys would like to reach or are you happy with what you have?
OT: We’re not satisfied with where we are at all. We want to just have our own blueprint for success. For a lot of people that might be selling a lot of records or quantified in more monetary ways, but I think for our band success is just being able to do things with as independent a spirit as possible while keeping it all self sustaining. A process that’s able to grow steadily and not be recognized by only one record or song. And that may not be realized for a few more years but we’re willing to wait for that.
AO: When you guys first signed a record deal it was with a CCM/Gospel label. When you switched to being a more mainstream/secular band did you receive any heat from either side?
OT: You know it’s been funny; there really hasn’t been much of either. The people who liked us when we were on a Gospel label still like us, and those who didn’t still don’t. I don’t feel like there’s a discrimination against artists with some sort of spiritual make up as maybe there was 10 years ago. When I was 18 I remember them saying refrain from placing your worldview into your songs, but I don’t think it’s that way anymore. People understand that there is a spiritual element to life, we all just have different ways of looking at that.
AO: In that case then what are your feelings on CCM (Contemporary Christian Music)?
OT: It has a sound of it’s own. It has a feeling of it’s own. The concept when it all started was to just be sympathetic to people of faith where artists of a particular spiritual make up could make records where they don’t have to compromise any sort of their spiritual background to make the music they want to make. Now it’s pretty much just an industry that is used to facilitate the Evangelical church. Most bands now who have some sort of measure of faith but also aspire to create progressive art are just avoiding that whole scene all together and just going right out into the mainstream.
The CCM world has a purpose, and a pretty clear and concise mission. I just don’t feel like we’re a part of that.
AO: Do you feel like it’s restrictive?
OT: It’s restrictive if you’re a rock n roll band. I felt like all we would do was disappoint people because all we would do was get on stage and play a rock show and then walk backstage and have a gaggle of ten mothers in my face about why the music sounded like The Rolling Stones because that makes them think of sexuality. Just very trivial things that have enormous effects on some people that believe that rock in it’s essence is evil. I just feel like my whole M.O. in life is to prove that there’s a place where your spirituality and that inherent risk and danger of rock n roll can meet. Where you can walk that line and not compromise either. And maybe that’s a dangerous thing to try and pull off.
AO: Like Johnny Cash?
OT: Huh, maybe that was his line. (laughs)
AO: In the song ‘Back To Indiana’ off your latest record you wrote “ I don’t believe in fate, I call it destiny…” do you feel that in life we’re all destined to a certain life or does free will play a bigger part in it?
OT: I’m proud of that line because I think some people think you just sort of luck your way into anything that happens to you and it’s just all a matter of fortune. I feel that everything in life has a distinct purpose and you just have to ultimately choose to follow the things that are in your heart. Most people won’t, because they feel that it’s impractical. They always have to have a contingency plan. They’ll say, “Well sure I love painting, but I’m just going to get a job and that’ll be my hobby because painting will never pay the bills…” I understand that being practical is part of life, but I think that there are a lot of people who relegate themselves to this bane of existence where life is not meant to be purposed, it’s meant to be practical. In my most optimistic of moments I feel that most people could live their lives endeavoring to do whatever is in their heart first, and at some point with enough fortitude, belief and diligence they can make the primary cause of their life their passion as well.
It’s funny when I talk to people in my hometown, you know, playing poker with some of these old timers and they’re always like; “Hey man, I heard about your band. You make any money doin’ that?” They always ask that and I’m always like, “I mean I do okay.” That’s just sort of the indoctrinated economy that most people have; does it make money or does it not? And I understand that, I just wish that people’s idea of life was first to be purposed and second was to make money.
AO: You’re a success if you’re doing what you love.
OT: Yeah I mean success is following your heart and the rest, be it fame or money, should all be a by product.
AO: In reference to your optimism, do you happen to have ANY trace of cynicism within you? Looking at your lyrics and how you’re talking I’d say no.
OT: I feel like as a cause personally and as a band is to try to say to people stuck in a certain bane of existence to start dreaming again and start believing that the stuff in your life you never thought could happen to you could. Maybe it is a matter of effort, and maybe it is luck, and maybe it is a matter of perseverance. So many people don’t get what they want because they don’t even try. I’m not gonna be sympathetic to that. If that’s what you’re gonna do and you aren’t even gonna try to pursue what you want with your life than that makes you a slacker, I guess.
With my life and the band’s life, we’d like to try to put a different lens on people’s life and get them to see life as a pursuit of purpose.
AO: So do you feel then that if someone feels like they love painting that they were purposed to paint?
OT: It’s a little more global than that, you don’t just wake up one day at nine years old and say; “ You know what, I love swimming…” But I think everybody, if they really sat down and got very serious with themselves, could find they have very distinct impressions. Not just what do you like to do, but what are you gifted in? What skills do you have that are just imbued into your character? If people just become brutally honest with themselves, they know something they would like to do. And for some people that would be to be in sales, or to be in administrative work, or humanitarian work. Some people love the rush of selling a house, or an insurance policy.
There are a lot of people working jobs that are not really their purpose, and I feel like I’m just becoming a broken record. (laughs) I don’t think it’s just enough to have a hobby that you love and then just pursue it. You have to have a very stark conversation with yourself and say; “ What do I feel is my destiny?” It’s not as fickle as just liking to do something, it’s feeling purposed to do something. People should just be encouraged in that way to chase that stuff. I can’t tell you the number of conversations I have had to people who have said if they could do it all over again they would do it differently. I just hate to hear that. You get one crack at this life. Many people are aware of what they were purposed to do, they are just too afraid to try.
AO: Your message is usually, lyrically, very personal. But on your newest record, the song “This Is How The World Will End” is thematically more global than that. What sparked that thought? Was it basically what you were just talking about?
OT: Well that song, I was watching the news and first of all it was all bad news, the economy, the war, the homeless crisis. I just feel like those ills, the things that affect us daily are matters of the heart at the end of the day. We’re in an age of greed and consumption. It seems like people are getting less compassionate and if the matters of the heart were rectified first then you’d find that you didn’t need to legislate people to do a lot of things that they would choose to do.
I think Obama has an unbelievable communicative ability. He’s probably more gifted at that than most presidents we’ve ever had. I hope that as his presidency rolls out and he gains credibility with the public that he starts to make appeals to people, not saying he’s going to change laws so that we’ll act a certain way. He should just make personal appeals to people. I’m not going to tell you to do this, but I’m going to ask you to. I think hearts are still ripened in enough places that you can move people with the right communication and humility. That song is about how we all need to give a little more, and be sweeter to each other. I guess it’s just another optimistic feeling that things could change. We could fight each other less, less people would starve and be sick, we would break less hearts if we would just quit being so vapid and self absorbed, and this could happen if we really esteemed others higher than we do ourselves.
AO: So you’re saying that lawmakers legislate laws to try and change how people act, but in the end, it never actually changes their hearts?
OT: Exactly. I think there are some places that people should know you can’t kill a guy or you’re going to jail. Fair enough. I think that is an appropriate law, and laws are there to be deterrents. I’m not against laws, I’m just pro the idea of people choosing to do the right thing as opposed to being told they have to. There’s a very simple, special transaction of the spirit that takes place when you walk down the street and see somebody in need and you help them. Not because some governor legislated some law that said we have to help the needy. It just begrudges people to the whole idea of charity.
Obviously the big debate right now is healthcare and you hear people talk about welfare or work programs. A lot of people are disgruntled because they feel that somebody is telling them they have to give to these programs when they really didn’t choose to do that. It’s like the government usurping their choice, taking their money and appropriating it elsewhere. I’ve got this idea that charity is really a wonderful thing and I’m optimistic enough to know that if you petition people in the right way that they’ll choose to help other people. I can say that from my own life I’ve seen it happen. We work with organizations that help impoverished communities become self sustaining, drill wells, or child sponsorship programs. Of course they have their issues, they aren’t without flaw, but the premise is that you walk into a room and you ask people to be compassionate. If you approach people with realities and with a contrite spirit maybe they’ll say, “you know, I don’t do enough, maybe I don’t give enough…” And you’ll find out that that transaction is what the human experience is about, it’s about service. Somewhere along the line we got confused into being it’s about the pursuit of stuff and money and it just convoluted the idea of living, which is meant to have a backdrop of service and community.
So eventually we got to a point where government officials looked around and thought about how no one is giving to the homeless people, and no one is helping the needy so we should start telling them we have to give to them. It just corrupts the whole idea.
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I’m a Christian guy and philosophically I agree with the teachings of Christ. This isn’t me saying everybody needs to believe what I do about God. I’m just saying that as a principle in life that being gracious and compassionate fosters all the best attributes of what people have to offer. And we’re just in this culture right now where I feel like I’m increasingly sympathetic to the plight of the housewife because that’s a woman who gets up in the morning and when she checks her email and some ad pops up that tells her she could have whiter teeth. Then she goes downstairs and turns on Oprah and she says to get something for her, and she thinks maybe she’s not happy. Then at the grocery store, buying food for the family, she sees the magazines in the checkout lane with superstars walking down beaches, reminding her she’ll never be able to afford a vacation and relax on the beach with Catherine Zeta Jones. The plot is just lost. I don’t feel that’s me preaching the Gospel, I’m not saying he everybody, believe my faith schematics, I’m just saying the premise of life should be service. When you serve somebody your spirit is emboldened. It’s a flawed logic to think that life should be a pursuit for yourself.
AO: Another line that thought process brings to light is when you sing; “I’ve got a heart that’s full of equal parts fear and faith…” which is interesting because you don’t always hear that from the spiritual standpoint. You either hear songs about the fearful part or the faithful part. Can you just elaborate on how you felt when you wrote that?
OT: I guess every time I think about my faith, ultimately why doesn’t anybody believe anything that isn’t right in front of their face, it’s not tangible, it’s not provable, it’s not scientifically plausible. Anything, not just belief in God, but anything you can’t see there is a matter of blind belief involved. So everyday that I get up, walk around and live my life is tempered by this idea that I have of God and spirituality and sometimes when I’m living my life that way I say to myself; “I can’t even see what I’m using as this primary backdrop to my life.” So there’s that rub of trying to be a logical guy, I hope I’m getting wiser as I get older, but at the same time I have a value set in my life that is constructed in a belief of something I can’t see. So that’s all that’s about, equal parts fear and faith, you know, is just being on that road of feeling like yeah I guess at some point the things I believe aren’t grounded in logic, but grounded in faith.
AO: The line stands out in the song due to the honesty it seems to convey.
OT: Anybody who’ll say to you they’ve never once doubted their faith is lying. And if they haven’t, maybe they should, ask themselves some tougher questions. I was in a room the other day who are Christians and we started talking about it and I started playing devil’s advocate. All they were doing was quoting scripture and I was saying some people aren’t going to care about scripture. They’ll say it’s just a book of fairytales, just a bunch of ruminations by a bunch of old dudes and written thousands of years ago. What if somebody said to give them something more visceral or tangible? Not just the words out of the scripture but why do you believe what you believe.
AO: Because to somebody with no belief in God, a book written inspired by Him will be of no consequence.
OT: “The Bible says so” is just not a good enough answer sometimes. I think that faith is constructed to just be out of logical reach at all times. Even if we found out that the earth was a certain age and we could prove scientifically that the earth was young, thus leading to a whole radical sea change in scientific philosophy you still can’t see God. I think faith is not meant to be proven so that final step is just one of blind trust. I think sometimes people need to ask themselves why they believe that as opposed to script on a page, you have to have some sort of reason in your gut.
AO: My favorite song of yours is “ A Place In The Sun” and a line that definitely stands out in that song is “There’s a man in my shoes where a boy used to be” which I relate to a lot because I’m 22 years old and I feel like I’m still a boy having to deal with adult responsibility. Does that express the sentiments of that song?
OT: Yeah, I mean, I’m 31 and we just work very, very hard and have gone through some really tumultuous times and really disheartening times for the sake of what we believe is our purpose. I’ve just learned a lot and at times I feel like my hearts become a little more calloused to things. It’s a line that’s about age and getting older, and seeing the world differently as you get older. It’s this idea that if you’re not careful, you’ll lose a little bit of that wonder, that anticipation for every moment. It’s what you could call optimism in pessimism. I, at times, walk into a situation not believing that the best is possible. I never want to lost that feeling that at any given moment I believe the best. I live my life and everything I do is logical and meticulously crafted and I work tirelessly to do what we do. Even when we’re off the road I find other ways to succeed here and to chase this dream, and I just hope at some point I don’t lose that general wonder and amazement of rolling out on stage that night and feeling like something new is possible. I don’t feel like we pursue vitality, it’s just something that stays with you or it doesn’t.
That song is actually a little more of a allegory, a little more of a story. I pictured a guy, maybe in his 60’s, having worked in a plant or a factory for 45 years and just being exhausted. Maybe his joints are a mess and he’s hunched over and his body’s tired. All he wants is to sit there and be calm and get away from the daily struggle, just for a little while. I’m really proud of the song because I feel like it does have a cinematic element to it. He just wants to be sitting there in the breeze under a tree, maybe watching somebody he loves dance in the wind, just being free from work for awhile. Free from the stress. That is the story of so many people I know, just wanting to get away from the stress of finance or work or life in general. He is feeling that he’s devoid of purpose, and being free of that and relaxing and enjoying the simple things.
AO: This may come across as a back handed compliment but I think the way you guys construct your songs, they have a perfection to them, but it’s almost as if I am never surprised by the song.
OT: Yeah, I don’t feel that the role of our band, or the interest of our band is to go out there and musically be radical, it’s just to musically be great. I just hope at some point we can be listed in a heritage of bands that include my favorites. I feel like we’ll always make records that will be housed in that four piece rock band combo. And we’ll just push it as far as we can.
AO: There’s definitely a uniqeness to your style, as I said, with the mixture of Americana and Brit-Pop.
OT: We didn’t sit down and decide that.
AO: It just came out of your influences?
OT: It was just one day I was like, hey guys I wrote this song, and then I started a band with my friends and my brother. What I’m proud of about out band is it really is a very humble way for a band to start. It’s just four buddies really. Our relationships were not founded because of music, it was founded because we all knew each other since we were kids. We just grew into this deep, profound love of music and we decided let’s do this and we got in a van and started it together. I’m just really proud of that. It’s not like we audition each other, or put up fliers or ad’s, it was just very organic. I can’t think of a more real way for a band to come together and I think it’s that reason we’ve been able to weave through the ebb and flow as a band and personally in our lives. I’m just really proud of that.
AO: Was there ever a moment you felt The Elms could be no more?
OT: Yeah, it happens. I wouldn’t say often, but it’s semi-regularly. I mean, you walk off stage and I’m a perfectionist by nature and that’s just a monster and it’s just always sneering at you. You’ll be on stage and hear the littlest of mistakes and my brain just goes haywire and the cause of my life for the last year as far as performances have been concerned is to control that. It got very out of control. We’ve had conversations before where we discussed why I just couldn’t be appeased and why I couldn’t allow myself to just enjoy the moment. I think at the end of the day, the reason I couldn’t be satisfied, is really an asset to the band. Perfectionism, a certain neurosis, is born because you believe you’re called to something, so I don’t think that trait is necessarily bad to where it’s debilitating and you can’t laugh off a mistake.
We’ve had plenty of times, I mean, my brothers in the band, so we fight all the time. I guess that’s what I’m saying, the things that we’ve gone through and go through consistently has been enough to break most other bands, but because of our commitment to each other that’s been forced since we were nine years old, we just can’t walk away from it. Our personalities are so wrapped into each other now, it’s almost unexplainable. There should be a word past friendship to explain this. There should be another word invented for guys with history like ours because it’s so deep and vast a connection. It’s not marriage, but it’s something strange.
The Elms
The Elms